Comments on: Show #9: Pre-show Discussion http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/2006/02/17/show-9-pre-show-discussion/ The Kick-Ass Mystic Ninjas are here to bring you a new perspective on old school science fiction and fantasy. Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:43:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: tim http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/2006/02/17/show-9-pre-show-discussion/#comment-475 tim Tue, 21 Feb 2006 01:55:04 +0000 http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/?p=74#comment-475 I strongly disagree with Jesse. Sure, there were a LOT of characters in that book, but I what I think one thing Brin showed was this - that even within three or four major groups, there are divisions and dissentions. The alien groups, constantly jockying for position, was echoed within the human/dolphin groups. My biggest gripe with "Startide Rising" was that Brin never revealed the nature of the catalysmic discovery made by the wolfling humans. I expected that to be revealed in "Uplift War" but alas, he gave us a different (though also entertaining) story. I strongly disagree with Jesse. Sure, there were a LOT of characters in that book, but I what I think one thing Brin showed was this - that even within three or four major groups, there are divisions and dissentions. The alien groups, constantly jockying for position, was echoed within the human/dolphin groups. My biggest gripe with “Startide Rising” was that Brin never revealed the nature of the catalysmic discovery made by the wolfling humans. I expected that to be revealed in “Uplift War” but alas, he gave us a different (though also entertaining) story.

]]> By: Summer http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/2006/02/17/show-9-pre-show-discussion/#comment-474 Summer Mon, 20 Feb 2006 03:10:40 +0000 http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/?p=74#comment-474 Huh. Apparently I had the order of the books wrong. The first trilogy in order is "Sundiver", then "Startide Rising", then "Uplift War". Wikis can be so cool. Huh. Apparently I had the order of the books wrong. The first trilogy in order is “Sundiver”, then “Startide Rising”, then “Uplift War”.

Wikis can be so cool.

]]> By: Jesse Willis http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/2006/02/17/show-9-pre-show-discussion/#comment-472 Jesse Willis Mon, 20 Feb 2006 01:39:14 +0000 http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/?p=74#comment-472 I didn't read sundiver, I was told the second book in the series was the best one. So I reviewed it first. Now the idea that an “upliftâ€? of intelligent life is necessary in order to create sentient and spacefaring races is cool idea. Also cool is the idea of a “patron speciesâ€? and a “client species". The overall premise of “upliftâ€? is interesting, and would definitely be worth reading about, except for one minor issue. Startide Rising is a horrible novel. Its very very very talky, there are way way way too many characters - virtually every scene that might be of interest takes place off-stage, in the past or is happening at the time but being related by a third party indirectly! A cast of dozens of characters talking endlessly about events that just happened, are happening elsewhere or happening now but being related by a no-name character reading a sensor bank really is not fun. I am shocked that it won a Hugo and a Nebula. Shocked. I didn’t read sundiver, I was told the second book in the series was the best one. So I reviewed it first. Now the idea that an “upliftâ€? of intelligent life is necessary in order to create sentient and spacefaring races is cool idea. Also cool is the idea of a “patron speciesâ€? and a “client species”. The overall premise of “upliftâ€? is interesting, and would definitely be worth reading about, except for one minor issue. Startide Rising is a horrible novel. Its very very very talky, there are way way way too many characters - virtually every scene that might be of interest takes place off-stage, in the past or is happening at the time but being related by a third party indirectly! A cast of dozens of characters talking endlessly about events that just happened, are happening elsewhere or happening now but being related by a no-name character reading a sensor bank really is not fun.

I am shocked that it won a Hugo and a Nebula. Shocked.

]]> By: Rita http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/2006/02/17/show-9-pre-show-discussion/#comment-470 Rita Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:00:20 +0000 http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/?p=74#comment-470 I've read all six of the series, and let me tell you I wish I had stopped after #3. I started with Uplift War, which I think is #2. The other two are good reads, but Uplift War is the best of the lot, for characterization and plot. I've re-read it several times. Startide continues on with another plot thread, and while Sundiver makes reference to actions in the other books, I don't know where it fits chronologically. All of the books have a at least a little deus ex machina going on at the last minute: stuff happens that all the alien species think is logical and exceptable, but for our little bands of humans (including the reader) may feel a little like a shortcut to the words "the end" - you're building to something, then it just takes a left and stops. (sidenote: I feel later-Arther C Clark does the same thing, which annoys me 'cause the ride was so much fun, yet the ending seems like the publisher says "that's too many words - stop here") Sundiver seems to actually use this sort of left turn as a device to purposely leave the reader as unsettled as the characters, but I somewhat agree with Tim that it "ultimately comes off as bogus". The second trilogy, BTW, starts strong, with fun characters that Brin does horrible things to, and you get to watch them work their way out of things, then "a miracle happens here" and we get to watch the second coming or something - I was never sure what was happening. I’ve read all six of the series, and let me tell you I wish I had stopped after #3.

I started with Uplift War, which I think is #2. The other two are good reads, but Uplift War is the best of the lot, for characterization and plot. I’ve re-read it several times. Startide continues on with another plot thread, and while Sundiver makes reference to actions in the other books, I don’t know where it fits chronologically.

All of the books have a at least a little deus ex machina going on at the last minute: stuff happens that all the alien species think is logical and exceptable, but for our little bands of humans (including the reader) may feel a little like a shortcut to the words “the end” - you’re building to something, then it just takes a left and stops.

(sidenote: I feel later-Arther C Clark does the same thing, which annoys me ’cause the ride was so much fun, yet the ending seems like the publisher says “that’s too many words - stop here”)

Sundiver seems to actually use this sort of left turn as a device to purposely leave the reader as unsettled as the characters, but I somewhat agree with Tim that it “ultimately comes off as bogus”.

The second trilogy, BTW, starts strong, with fun characters that Brin does horrible things to, and you get to watch them work their way out of things, then “a miracle happens here” and we get to watch the second coming or something - I was never sure what was happening.

]]> By: tim http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/2006/02/17/show-9-pre-show-discussion/#comment-469 tim Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:04:36 +0000 http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/?p=74#comment-469 No, trust me, the other two are ripping good yarns. I'm a big space opera fan, and "Startide Rising" and "Uplift War" deliver. I actually read those first, then picked up "Sundiver" - and was greatly disappointed. From your "Hyperion" discussion, sounds like your problem was the density of the prose. My problem with "Sundiver" is that it ultimately comes off as bogus. But read it, and make your own judgements. No, trust me, the other two are ripping good yarns. I’m a big space opera fan, and “Startide Rising” and “Uplift War” deliver. I actually read those first, then picked up “Sundiver” - and was greatly disappointed.

From your “Hyperion” discussion, sounds like your problem was the density of the prose. My problem with “Sundiver” is that it ultimately comes off as bogus.

But read it, and make your own judgements.

]]> By: Summer http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/2006/02/17/show-9-pre-show-discussion/#comment-468 Summer Sat, 18 Feb 2006 18:41:35 +0000 http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/?p=74#comment-468 Dude, don't tell me that! :) I have a bad experience with first books of that bent. See my commentary on "Hyperion" for example. Dude, don’t tell me that! :)

I have a bad experience with first books of that bent. See my commentary on “Hyperion” for example.

]]> By: tim http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/2006/02/17/show-9-pre-show-discussion/#comment-467 tim Sat, 18 Feb 2006 15:42:37 +0000 http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/?p=74#comment-467 I've read the three (that I know of) books in the Uplift series. IMHO, "Sundiver" is the worst of the lot. The background universe is fascinating, and Brin explores it to better effect in "The Uplift War" and "Startide Rising". I'll be interested to hear what the Ninjas say about it. I’ve read the three (that I know of) books in the Uplift series. IMHO, “Sundiver” is the worst of the lot. The background universe is fascinating, and Brin explores it to better effect in “The Uplift War” and “Startide Rising”. I’ll be interested to hear what the Ninjas say about it.

]]> By: fourthof5 http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/2006/02/17/show-9-pre-show-discussion/#comment-466 fourthof5 Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:29:33 +0000 http://www.kickassmysticninjas.com/?p=74#comment-466 Don't think this one made it to OZ, so I am interested in hearing about it. Don’t think this one made it to OZ, so I am interested in hearing about it.

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