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1. The spice must flow. I can’t think of another sci-fi book where a piece of dialogue has been snatched from and taken on a life of its own.

   Comment by fred — March 8, 2006 #

2. Here’s been my main beef with the books vs movies:

   One thing that has seemed a bit missing from the movie / miniseries adaptations versus the books is the purpose behind the Bene Gesserit religious constructs. They missed the Missionaria Protectiva.

   In the screen adaptations, it seems like their creed is shown as some one-dimensional spooky mystical supernatural thing.

   In actuality it was a very calculated regime of eugenics, with religious components purposely calculated and spread by missionaries to ensure that members of the Bene Gesserit wouldn’t get lynched by planetary populations when they worked to manipulate the gene stock.

   The spooky parts are just there to fool the masses while they breed people for higher natural psychic and mental powers toward the Kwisatz Haderach.

   The religion - even that of the Fremen, apparently in opposition to the rest of the universe - is a well-constructed multi-generational sham so that Bene Gesserits can get away with their breeding program without having to explain themselves. Wheels within wheels, and all that.

   Comment by l.m.orchard — March 8, 2006 #

3. Another aspect the movies missed over the original book is the powerful internal dialogs. Lynch attempted this with the dopey voice-overs (”My name is a killing word.”), and the SFC miniseries didn’t even bother.

   In fact, Dune the book v. Dune the filmed adaptations points out the nearly insurmountable obstacle that faces SF. So much of what drives Dune (and other great SF stories) are concepts and connections that work well in print, but cannot make the leap to the screen. I.m. orchard’s post touches on this problem.

   Thus the filmed versions basically tell the story of Paul Atreides - a person gifted with superhuman abilities, who uses his gifts to exact revenge on those who murdered his beloved father and took his ducal inheritance. This in itself can be a strong story, but it is only the surface of the spicemass when dealing with the complexity that is Dune.

   Comment by tim callender — March 8, 2006 #

4. …ah, there’s so much else to discuss! Looking forward to this one, oh yes….

   Comment by tim callender — March 8, 2006 #

5. Dune was the most work I had to put into scifi ever to understand it, but which also gave me the greatest reward for my effort.

   To understand it, I saw the movie, then read the book, saw the movie again, and then read the book a second time. Only then did I figure out what the heck was going on. I promptly read the rest of the series in about a month after that, and enjoyed each of them immensely.

   To be sure, I was only thirteen or fourteen at the time, and political and religeous intrigue were way down the list of my interests (after girls and video games, natch), but the story and scope of the series has stuck with me since, now twenty years on. The concept of a well interlaced storyline spreading over ten thousand years still gets my mind a little boggled.

   As for the screen adaptations, I like Lynch’s for the obvious sentimental reasons (it introduced me to the story), but I think I prefer the mini-series as I feel it was truer to the book.

   Comment by Eric — March 8, 2006 #

6. I liked the miniseries and the movie (and, of course, the books), but I think the movie is terribly under-appreciated. Admittedly, it would have to be about 6 hours long to adequately cover the source material, but I thoroughly enjoyed the movie.

   Then again, it was also my introduction to Dune. So maybe that is coloring my judgement.

   Comment by Brian — March 8, 2006 #

7. Lynch’s Dune was my introduction to the series and my introduction to the fact that most audiences can’t pay attention during a film. While I greatly enjoyed the film I was amazed at how many people (that also hadn’t read the books) could not follow the movie. “Too confusing,” they said. Yeah, right.

   Afterwards, I read all the books. The first book IMO is the best of the bunch, though Chapterhouse got interesting before leaving you hanging at the end. Sigh, too bad Herbert never finished the series. I have yet to read the new additions to the universe. One of these days….

   Anyway, I thought the SciFi channel’s adaptation of Dune was quite good. It followed the book more closely and did have the epic feel that the story deserves. Unfortunatley, it wasn’t quite up to snuff. SciFi’s Children of Dune was much better, partly because of some fantastic music from Brian Tyler.

   The problem with the Dune “movies” is that much like LotR, the book is practically unfilmable. To make a great Dune movie, you need an exceptional director like Jackson. This hasn’t happened yet. The book is just too dense with ideas and commentary. And, unlike Asimov, the characters are interesting.

   I’ll need to re-read this book again, but in particular I liked the chapter quotes. This was one of the first books I read that did this quite well.

   Comment by Dave C — March 8, 2006 #

8. I re-watched the Lynch version recently (actually, the “Alan Smithee” version). Halfway through, it struck me - what Lynch had created was the Official Story of Muad’Dib, as approved by the propaganda division of Arrakeen. It was so broadly written, and had all the “historic” quotes that began chapters in the book. I appreciated it much more after I made that connection.

   As for the other Herbert Dune novels, I think the quality varies greatly. The prequels are okay if you like that sort of thing, but sort of come off as irrelevant in my opinion.

   Comment by tim callender — March 8, 2006 #

9. The David Lynch movie was my jumping off point for the Dune universe.

   After viewing it, my English professor in High School gave me his copy of Dune to read. As soon as I started reading it I couldn’t put it down. I read it twice in the week I had it. First just going through it and reading the story, then going back and following along with the notes he had made in the margins, and highlited phrases. This was the first book that I read that had multiple layers mythos, well stuff that actually interested me.

   I have since been through 3 copies of the book, and read everything Frank Herbert has published, multiple times.

   The extended story books, further expnad the universe and tell a very good story, but are not as deep.

   I believe the David Lynch movie is a good jumping off point for introducing someone to the universe, as they’ll get a basic overview of the story and a little bit of the mythos (although how small/mutated it is). The SciFi mini-series look better than the David Lynch film. The absolute absuratity of the costumes and sets was what I pictured while reading the books.

   The David Lynch Still Suits don’t have a hoods, so are not efficient, and the SciFi series weren’t much better. There wasn’t a big deal made about water, it felt like a secondary topic, and not the main reason Arrakis is the way it is, and how it is eventually evolved into a lush planet and how the universe no longer funtions the way it used to with the spice hoarding that the Leto-Worm had in his stores. (Wow, long run on sentacne)

   Comment by Jeff — March 8, 2006 #

10. Cool. Dune is good. Be interesting to hear comparisons between the Different Dune incarnations. Looking forward to it.

    Comment by Nigel in Melbourne — March 9, 2006 #

11. I found that the 1984 Dune is best viewed with no sound. The visual effects of the ships, worms are such were pretty much what was in my head when I had read the novel. With a remote control in one hand and the novel in the other it is a very cool graphic novel. Read a scene, press play then pause, repeat.

    To be fair, any written work with that much inner dialog and subtlety would be difficult to present as a movie. The SciFi channels mini series did a decent job of it. However the SciFi version leaned more towards action than the political power struggle side of the novel.

    Don’t forget to mention the Avalon Hill game as well. It’s hard to play without following some of the military strategy from the book. (The game expansions didn’t add much and are best left out.)

    Comment by Roger — March 12, 2006 #

12. I’ve only ever seen the original movie (I fell asleep twice while viewing it and on the third try made it all the way through). The book, on the other hand, I tried to read when I was 15. Didn’t make it. I tried again at 16, 18, 20, and finally at age 27. It wasn’t until the last time I was actually able to read and understand what he’d written. I kept trying to figure out when the hell he was on when he wrote this stuff. But as has been stated, once you get this book, it is SO worth the effort.

    Comment by J.R. Murdock — March 13, 2006 #

13. Hey, just stumbled onto your podcast via the ad on The Signal, the podcast for Firefly and Serenity, and boy, what a time to get to your podcast. I’m all about Dune right now, currently working on Heretics of Dune. I thought the miniseries, based on my orgininal viewing of the Lynch movie version, was great, and Children of Dune even better. Honestly, my recollection of the movie, which I haven’t seen in years, was that it’s long, slow, and full of inner monologue. But coming off my love affairs recently with Bab 5, Firefly and the new Battlestar Galactica, I decided to hop onto the Dune series, and I suppose now’s a good time to revisit the movie. I’m hoping for new miniseries on the last three Frank Herbert novels, but, going back to I.m. Orchard’s comments, without enough background on the Missionaria Protectiva or even the Ixians and Tleilaxu, I really think any new screen adaptations will really face an uphill battle to explain these things both adequately AND elegantly. Well, here’s hoping anyway, and I’ll be sure to start listening to your podcast regularly.

    Comment by Myke — March 15, 2006 #

14. Great to hear you’re discussing Dune! Science Fiction Epic!!! As a kid, after reading Asimov’s Foundation Trilogy and Heinlein’s Future History Series, I discovered Dune. Way more mysterious, spiritual and (sure) a little bit confusing compared to the others, but soooooo much better (I’ve read the series 2x). Anyway, in order of quality: Dune (the Herbert Books), Dune (the Lynch movie – it’s Lynch!!!) and then the mini-series (Hurt is not Jurgen Prochnow, Kyle beats Alec, and Lynch’s Harkonnen is so much more evil). Hopefully, you’ll be able to go beyond the first book and discuss the progression through the series. Maybe it got a little abstract (too much religion?) through the middle books but he really started to pull it together in Chapterhouse. Sad that his series ended there. I read all of Brian Herbert’s prequals - not bad for filling in the history, but a bit more literal than Frank Herbert’s original. Looking forward to what they do with “Hunters of Dune� and “Sandworms of Dune� Finally, I’d love to hear your take on the end of Chapterhouse.

    Comment by Dale G. — March 15, 2006 #

15. There are certain books that defy our attempts to quantify them.

    Catch-22
    War and Peace
    Stranger in a Strange Land
    Dune

    If you think that visual media can attempt to duplicate what we imagined when we read the first chapter…I pity you the small screen your internal DJ must play.

    There are even novellas and short stories that cannot be captured on visual media. It is our involvement in the finished product that is the final addition to the writer’s grand view.

    However, I continue the applaud and support any artist or director who has the cajones to try and make any sense of said books.

    Can’t wait until they try to do “Dinner at Deviant’s Palace” by Tim Powers. hahahaha

    KfK

    Comment by Karen from Kalifornia — March 21, 2006 #

16. I loved the miniseries because I like accuracy and I want the moviemakers to stay true to the original story. I realize that it is impossible to capture the whole book scene-for-scene on film.

    There are many good examples of when the original story was totally butchered. A recent example that really disappointed me was The Hitchhikers Guide. Lord of the Rings did OK, although there were some scenes which did not stem from the imagination of JRRT.

    I think The Dune miniseries followed the story really well and stayed true to the spirit of the story. The movie by Lynch had better actors, thou.

    Comment by Mika — March 23, 2006 #

17. Hey Karen,

    You are absolutely right. On the other hand, there are movies that would be very difficult to capture in a book form. These media are very different and, consequently, they cater to different audiences.

    BTW, you ever notice that your sig can also be abbreviated as “KafKa”? ;>

    Comment by Dave C — March 23, 2006 #

18. I like both the David Lynch version and the mini series for different reasons. The Lynch version because it has such excellent visuals that have stayed with me through many years. But the mini series actually made the book accessible for me, and for that I love it, because the book is an absolute masterpiece.

    I do have a question - which hopefully the Ninjas can clarfiy on the show. I know there is an Alan Smithee versionof the Lynch film out there - now is that the extended edition that was recently released on DVD with the hand drawn pictures which add to the story? Or is it the ‘edited for TV’ version? I’ve seen different accounts in different places, and am confused as to which version Lynch disavowed.

    Comment by MA — March 23, 2006 #

19. First of all. Dune is a great book - and I’m glad you’re discussing it.
    The sequels suffer badly in comparison. Plus there is a tricky problem (in any writing) when you make so many characters omniscient/prescient/telepathic etc. Every time I attempt to read the sequels that old tune starts running through my head “I was lookin’ back to see if you were lookin’ back at me” repeat ad nauseam.
    Back to Dune - The copy of the book I just got out of the libray has a copyright date of 1965. Yet the book is not dated. (well except for that throw away reference to an orgy that slipped past me and my Mom at 14). Not all sf ages as well. Yet I think that Dune’s big achievement is its’ world building. I mean now, it is practically required that every fat fantasy/sf book come with a glossary and index so you can follow the plot. Dune certainly has that but the information flows very smoothly.
    And wasn’t Herbert the first author to really introduce ideas about ecosystems into the sf world? I’d say that is the sf aspect of the book, not the visions and spaceships but the tying ideas about ecology (of all topics) to a space opera plot.

    Comment by Catharine aka WebGenii — March 27, 2006 #

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